This is a copy-and-paste post. I wanted to preserve the conversation… 99.9% will not want to read beyond this point. But if you want to go deep into Kingdom theology, here is a facebook conversation that actually happened over comments between friends!
Andrew Hebert’s status:
kingdom of God = the inbreaking of God’s sovereignty on creation – inaugurated at Jesus’ 1st coming and consummated at His 2nd coming
Randy White:
I’m so going to have to correct you on that one, son:)
God’s sovereignty didn’t break into creation, but was the source of creation. The big mistake most make is mixing the doctrine of God’s Sovereignty with the Doctrine of the Kingdom. The Kingdom grows out of Sovereignty, but Sovereignty is not the Kingdom. God’s rule and reign is … Read Moresovereignty. The reign of the Son of Man on David’s throne is the Kingdom.
Since God’s sovereignty was not inaugurated at Jesus’ 1st coming, and since the Davidic throne was not established at His first coming (and has not been since), the Kingdom is yet future.
Andrew Hebert:
haha, thx for the input. i was hoping you’d respond. of course, there is a general reign of God over creation which is eternal. However, Jesus did inaugurate a specific reign in the line of the Davidic kingly-Messiah hope of 2 Sam. 7, Dan. 7, etc. When Matthew identifies JEsus as the “son of David” he sees Him as being the descandant through … Read Morewhom the Davidic-kingly reign would commence. Jesus Himself understood His role this way and declared that the Kingdom was “at hand.” An already/not yet tension is clearly present in the New Testament and is the most comprehensive way of explaining how Jesus reigns now, evidenced in His life and ministry, and how He will reign over all the earth (fulfillment of Psalm 110) in the future. Two events that need to be discussed more in depth are Jesus’ baptism and ascension and how they bear on the conversation.
Randy White:
Andrew: Matthew really does not identify Jesus as the “Son of David” (though he would not disagree). Matthew simply quotes others who used the designation. These others clearly saw in Jesus the fulfillment of the Promised Son of David.
Recognizing Jesus as such, however, is not recognition that any kind of Davidic Kingdom has begun. David would not have understood the reign of Christ today to be the fulfillment of the promise…. Read More
Jesus declared that the Kingdom was “at hand”, not that it had arrived. The word is used 55 times in the New Testament and never means “It is here”. In fact, such a translation wouldn’t make sense in almost all of its usages. To make “at hand” mean “in hand” can only be done with theological persuasion, not grammatical persuasion. And theology built on bad grammar is bad theology!
Interestingly, after the nation rejects the “repent” requirement of the “at hand” kingdom, Jesus begins to teach that the Kingdom is far off rather than “at hand”. Several times Jesus corrects his followers concerning the nearness of the Kingdom. He never corrects them concerning their understanding of a physical Kingdom (they had no concept of a spiritual kingdom–that one wasn’t dreamed up until theologians got creative well into the first millennium!). The only time Jesus ever corrects any understanding of the Kingdom is in relation to its nearness. Once near, it was now far due to the rejection of the offer by the nation.
Jesus has been given all authority in heaven and earth, but He is now at the right hand of the throne. Someday (soon!) He will be given the throne of David and the Son of Man will fulfill the original intent of man as it relates to creation–to have dominion over that creation. Until then, we pray “Thy Kingdom Come”.
So, “already/not yet” is only 1/2 true!
This in no manner takes away from the “already” rule and reign of Christ over creation, but the “already” as it relates to the Kingdom takes away from the clear promises of scripture and spiritualizes those promises.
I now win the award for the world’s longest facebook comment…or the world’s shortest theological textbook!
Jamin Roller:
Kingdom of God = the redemptive rule of God, in Christ, conquering His enemies (sin and death) and extending to His citizens the benefit of His reign. In Matt 11 when John sends his messengers to inquire from Jesus about His ministry, Jesus appeals to the miraculous works done by His hand as evidence that He indeed is the one through whom God will … Read Moreinaugurate His kingdom as prophesied in Isaiah 29, 61 and Psalm 22. This is one of many instances (Matt 12:28!) presented in scripture that reveal the emergence of the kingdom in Jesus as foretold in the OT. It is both realized and yet fulfilled, present and future, already and not yet.
p.s. If I’m wrong, I am so with Dr. Metts and I think that is a safe place to be
Randy White:
From which passage(s) do you get this definition of the Kingdom of God? If this is the definition, then the Kingdom has been fulfilled. And, if this is the definition, King David and the prophets were no doubt surprised at their misunderstanding of the Kingdom!
Barton Ramsey:
Randy – Finding scripture that specifically defines “kingdom of God” would give us an array of answers. There are such scriptures that give an exact def. (Rom 14:17), but they would obliterate the idea of the Kingdom being “only not yet” and not “already” and take the fun out of this conversation. The word that is being defined wrongly is simply “kingdom.” As Andrew pointed out, kingdom = reign. Some scriptures that use “malkuth” this way are Ezra 8:1, II Chron. 12:1, and Daniel 8:23. Actually, even David seems to understand the “Kingdom of God” as His reign and power – “The Lord has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all.” Psalm 103:19. … Read More
I will concede that, as Andrew agreed, that aspect of the Kingdom (God’s sovereign reign over creation) is eternal. There must be some difference in this constant truth and the “kingdom of God” announced as “on hand” by Jesus, otherwise why announce its coming? But to say that it is still only “at hand” and not already here in some form is to miss, well… half of what its all about.
There is no reason to present a case for the “not yet” aspect, since everyone agrees that the Parousia will institute the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God in its entirety with Jesus on his throne ruling over his Kingly “realm” (which is necessary for there to be a kingdom, or reign). This second coming is a definite separation of this age (ruled by Satan) and the age to come (ruled by Christ).
It is important, though, to note that the separation of this age and the age to come is not only the return of Christ, but also the resurrection of the dead. This “eternal life… Read More” belongs to the age to come. When Paul speaks of the delivering of the Kingdom of God in I Cor 15, he says that there is a specific order in which this resurrection will take place – the first step being Christ (the firstfruits). This step has already occurred (the resurrection). This is what gives us so much hope in eternal life – Christ already accomplished this and we share in this power with him (Eph 2:5). The next two steps will be the resurrection of those who belong to Him (at His coming) and the destruction of death (both of which are described in this order in Revelation). These are the two things that you seem to focus on being the “set up” of God’s Kingdom on earth… These last steps before Christ “delivers the Kingdom to God the Father.”
But there is a strangeness about this last step of “conquering death” – Hebrews 2:14 says that this has already happened. Jesus has already destroyed (rendered useless) him who has power of death BY HIS OWN DEATH. Therefore, the cross is an initial defeat of Satan, the one who rules over “this age”, rendering those who belong to Him no longer under the rule of Satan (although still living in the age ruled by Satan), but under the reign of God (God’s Kingdom). Death is already defeated for them. It is not only a future hope (resurrection), but a present reality (a living hope, evidenced by the Holy Spirit living in us). This is why in Hebrews 6 it is possible for some to have “tasted… the powers of the age to come.” Galatians 1:6 He “gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age” – It is the act of Christ on the Cross that delivers from this age.
Therefore, the only clear conclusion can be that, through His ministry, death and resurrection, Christ has inaugurated the Kingdom. Those of us who participate in Christ do experience benefits and blessings of the Kingdom even while living in this present evil age. We have more than just hope that Christ will come and conquer death, but we have confidence that he has already defeated death – establishing His Kingdom on earth… and we await the fulfillment (consummation) of this Kingdom when he Returns to cast out Satan and establish His Reign fully over all creation.
It is important, Randy, to see just how you are missing it. The same way the Jews missed it when Jesus came to proclaim it. The idea that the Kingdom has not been inaugurated misses the very concept of Jesus’ healings and miracles which are surrounded by proclamations of the Kingdom…
To say it is like the girl who can’t take the bicycle out of the square is to misunderstand the “mystery of the Kingdom” as described in Mark 4. It’s an easy mistake, John made the same mistake even after Baptizing Jesus (“shall we look for another??”).
The mustard seed is planted, the leaven is hidden, Jesus displays his Reign over creation by telling her storms to cease, her demons to come out, her sick to be healed – as one with authority. … Read More… Read More
The mystery of the Kingdom, I think the beauty of the Kingdom, is that it has come in a way that it can be resisted – something no one expected…. But, something that displays the mercy of God, until the time comes in which it must be accepted by all – displaying the power of Christ.
Randy White:
Hi Barton…I look forward to meeting you someday. You’re well read and well spoken.
For the moment, let me just comment on your last post…that John was mistaken about the Kingdom, and that such a mistake is easy because the Kingdom is “something no one expected.”
Consider these factors–… Read More
1) John was the forerunner of the Messiah, filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb, coming in the spirit and power of Elijah, and his only recorded sermon was about the Kingdom of God…but he got it wrong. Hmmm??
2) The apostles and prophets also got it wrong, all looking for a physical reign, not a spiritual reign. And the church is built on the foundation of the prophets and apostles. Hmmm??
3) After the inspired writings of the prophets and apostles, many modern men have received a word of knowledge that has given them advanced understanding of the real definition of the Kingdom. Hmmm??
4) Without exception every prophetic word about the coming of the Messiah was filled literally in the common grammatical usage of language–but (according to the spiritual Kingdom view) the Kingdom aspects of the Messiah are fulfilled (at least partially) even though the literal common grammatical usage of language is violated by such an interpretation. Hmmm??
I do not at all doubt God’s reign over creation today. And today Christ is at the right hand of the throne. But someday He will receive the throne of His father David–and that is the Kingdom of God!
To align with the understanding of the prophets and apostles (and scripture!) one must take this view. Why define the current reign as Kingdom when they didn’t? Why not just acknowledge God’s sovereignty and pray “Thy Kingdom Come?”
Ladd has great stuff…but if he is one’s only source of Kingdom understanding, one has not fully studied the topic. Try George H.N. Peter’s “The Theocratic Kingdom” for an exhaustive opposing view.
Andrew Hebert:
I think I officially take the cake for having the longest responses to any post on Facebook.
For those who are interested, see Dr. White’s recent chapel sermon at Southwestern Seminary where he does a good job of articulating his position in more detail. http://www.swbts.edu/dashboard.cfm?dateString=20091014&dateToLoad=October 14, 2009
Since David and Barton have basically articulated my view, there’s not much more for me to say. Nevertheless, I’ll add a couple of things…. Read More
First, I can’t let this one go – Matthew did attribute “Son of David” to Jesus (Mt. 1:1 the geneaology of Jesus, son of David.).
Second, the disciples did get it wrong about the kingdom. Jesus WAS constantly correcting them, but less about the timing of the kingdom and more about the nature of the kingdom. For instance, in Mark 8 where Peter correctly identifies Jesus as the Messiah, he incorrectly rebuked Jesus when Jesus said that Messiah (the one who is the David-king) would suffer, be rejected, die, and be raised. The disciples constantly missed it. The nature of the kingdom at this stage is not YET what the disciples and all of Israel was looking for – earthly political irresistable. It was the kind of kingdom where the king dies for the rebels and ultimately defeats the evil powers behind the rebels by the resurrection. The king then offers His eschatalogical benefits to those who are willing to submit to Him.
Maybe it would clear up a couple of things if I nuanced a couple of words. First, “kingdom.” By kingdom, I mean “rulership,” or “reign.” Perhaps a better way of speaking about it is the “kingship” of God.
Second, by “sovereignty,” I don’t mean God’s “in-controlness” or omniscience, or something like that. I mean God’s eschatological reign and the benefits derived therefrom.
I understand kingdom language, according to Jesus, to be a modified historical-eschatological dualism. The historical-eschatological dualism would be the understanding of a 1st century Jew. This Age and the Age to Come are seperated by the Day of the Lord. All of the eschatological benefits promised in the Old Testament – redemption, the Spirit, resurrection, etc. – would be considered future, to be ushered in at the time of the Day of the Lord (presumably when the Son of David would take His throne for eternity – 2 Sam. 7). What I mean by modified historical-eschatological dualism is that Jesus essentially changed the timing of those eschatological benefits, so that we can experience the Spirit, redemption, etc. right now. That which belonged to the future is now experienced in the present, though the ultimate fulfillment will be fully realized in the future when Jesus returns.
I understand this to be what is expressed in Col. 1:13 when Paul says that we have been transferred (aorist active indicative – this would be the Ecbatic Aorist (Wallace, Basics of NT Syntax, pg. 241)) to the kingdom of the Son. Being in the kingdom (the eschatological reign with the benefits being enjoyed, yet not yet in full) is taking place now.
This is what Jesus means when he says that “the time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand” (Mk. 1:15). The time is fulfilled refers to all of the eschatological hope of Israel now being realized in the person of Jesus and extended to all of creation. This was central to the preaching of Jesus and the kerygma of the apostles (see Acts 17:7, 28:31). The good news (euangellion) is that Jesus is now Lord and King (expressed by His sitting down at God’s right hand in the ascension) and the benefits of His kingship (victory over death, redemption, the Spirit, etc.) are now to be enjoyed by all who claim Him as king. It will then be forcibly accepted by the world when He returns. At that point every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus as kurios. All of the eschatological benefits of God’s reign will then be fully realized.
4 hours ago
By the way, I think the apostle’s got the kingdom right, but only after the resurrection. additionally, the prophets did not by necessity have to understand what the davidic kingdom would look like to acknowledge that it would indeed come. My position is that Jesus gave meaning to what kingdom looks like.
4 hours ago
Randy White
I’ll have to respond more later to give this some detail, but I’ll take Andrew on and go the opposite direction…only because I love him!
The disciples never changed their position or understanding of the Kingdom…even after the resurrection when Jesus spent the time teaching about the Kingdom (Acts 1:3) and their concluding words were “is now the time to restore the Kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6). So, they completely saw the Kingdom as yet to be. This was at the ascension.
Paul does say that we have been transfered into the Kingdom (Col. 1:13) (aaorist indicative). He also said we have been predestined, called,justified AND GLORIFIED (aaroist indicative). None of you look glorified. But, spiritually it has been accomplished. In this same light, the Kingdom is accomplished. But that is not the light in which we are talking, any more than we would say we are currently glorified…. Read More
Later…I’ll give some examples to show that Jesus corrected the apostles and others many times about the Kingdom, but the corrections were always on the timing of the kingdom, not the nature of the kingdom. In fact, he never corrected the disciples on the nature of the kingdom…because He didn’t need to:)
1) further supports what I said. He expected the physical Kingdom reign to come through Christ at that moment – when it did not then he had to ask if Jesus was the Christ or if he should wait for another. This is not a case for the Kingdom not yet coming, it is a case for the Kingdom coming much differently than expected.
2) That the prophets got it wrong is exactly right. They misunderstood the Kingdom. This is why Jesus uses parables to explain the mystery of the Kingdom. mystery is simply something that has been kept secret but is now exposed. The idea of the Kingdom being a mystery includes the idea that it was not understood fully by anyone before the mystery was revealed. The apostles did not understand this fully, I believe, until the day of Pentecost. But then, Peter fully understood… “In these LAST DAYS..” This is why Peter says “Let all the house of Isreal therefore know for certaint hat God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you have crucified.” Not “will make him” – has made him. So the apostles, although still confused at the ascension (is this the time?)… understood clearly by Pentecost. What power do you think we receive?
3) I don’t think anyone has used a “word of knowledge.”… everyone seems to be using the Word here. As far as a better understanding, I am just going with the understanding that comes naturally out of Jesus’ actions and teaching. The understanding that doesn’t force one to ignore so much of what Jesus said and did. It is fallacious to separate the idea that Jesus corrected his disciples on the timing but not on the essence or nature. This division is not necessary, as a change in timing is not mutually exclusive to a change in essence. In fact, the two go hand-in-hand. Many parables on the Kingdom are obviously about the nature of the Kingdom, not the timing (the pearl, the leaven, the mustard seed, the seed growing, the four seeds, etc). Also, there are parables that explain the timing and essence of the Kingdom directly related to the misunderstanding of the disciples. (the draw net, the wheat and the weeds) The Kingdom is here – the seed is planted, the leaven is put in, the seeds are scattered, but it is not yet in its fullness – the weeds still grow, all fish are still in the net. … Read More
The “thy Kingdom come” is a great point here as well. The “thy will be done” shows that the “coming Kingdom” is the “reign” (or will) of God exercised over creation, on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus exercised this reign over creation in all that He did, and He gives this power to all who believe.